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If Juggernault was not harmed by Thor's Godblast, then it was PIS.  Even if Juggernault is at full crimson power, the Godblast is greater than his field by a long stretch. 

Nov 24, 2012 -- 5:30AM, wolvie316 wrote:

Oh yea and I call PIS on Juggernaut's confrontation with War Hulk.

Howdy Wolvie,

It’s nice to debate with you. I don’t know that we have ever had the chance to match verbal contrasts in the past. Please know that I hold you in high esteem. That said; I do stand by my points and will support them to the best of my ability. Just know that it is nothing personal old friend.

“The thing about Juggernaut is that mystical attacks that are powerful enough can hurt him. That's one of his weaknesses.”

Indeed.

“But as he has shown when SS stabbed his eye or when D'Spayre (not Nightmare) eviserated him, he almost instantly regenerated and was shown even as a skeleton, he was still a force to be reckon with which is why I say that the blood axe should do any permanent harm.”

Also agreed. And never disputed.

Wolverine likewise healed from a skeleton state (although he couldn’t move until the regeneration had completed). Hulk too has healed from bits of meat on bone dead in a matter of panels. I fully understand how powerful Jugg’s healing factor is. He is right up there with the very best healers in the MU.

(In fact- I actually pointed his healing factor out in my last post. We have no contention here.)

And I likewise didn’t say the Blood axe did any “permanent” damage. Only that it did, and can, do damage initially. Such is the story for all mega-healers. Jugg’s just happens to be magic fueled rather than science or mutation fueled.

And I know (and assume most fans of Juggernaut also know) that he heals back from damaging magical attacks.

But they do, none the less,  harm him for a duration.

And complete dismemberment has never been attempted on him. There is room for conjecture as to how long it would take him to (for example) grow a new head. His healing factor may be taxed by this. In fact- it likely would be. As psionic attacks (which are essentially nothing more than an electric impulse attack on his brain) knock Juggs out for extended durations. Completely obliterating his brain should have, at the very minimum, a similar affect.

“Also lets say the godblast did the same damage to Cain as D'Spayre's attack, it still may not stop him as he would regenerate alsmot instantly”

Also agreed my friend.

But again- I never said it would stop him. You can flat out kill Juggernaut, and still not stop him. He heals back and re-boots. And he keeps moving as long as there are parts to move.

What I said it was it was PIS that the god blast did not harm him at all.

I would have been fine with it punching a hole through his chest, followed by Juggs healing from the attack and getting back up again. It was ignoring the attack altogether that I call PIS on.

Now a godblast to the face (blowing his head clean off) is another story. That would take Jugg’s brain out. And that, at the very least, is a solid K.O. that would take some time to recover from.

D'Spayre's attack had one fatal flaw. It targeted Jugg’s body alone, and not his brain. Juggernaut’s body is magically animated. You can hack off chunks and he will just heal them back and keep coming at you. But his brain is another story altogether. Give it a squeeze; and you get a Cain dirt nap.

 “And one would think he's weak willed enough to be susceptible to mind control.”

I also never said Juggs was weak willed. I actually believe that Cain has above average will power. Granted he is not the most intelligent foe or combat tactician (the guy is no Black Panther); but he is also no Rhino or Blob.

“ Well the opposite is true as he has been shown to be strong willed enough to fight off even Cytorrak control.”

Indeed. He has had moments of glory in the area of courage and will power. But he has also had his moments of weakness and failure. He has been manipulated by Cyttorak far more often than he has resisted him.

And that is because for all of Cain’s immense magical power; under that brick of magic durability is a mind that is still very much human- and like all humans, he has his ups and his downs. He is flawed. As are we all. He has been manipulated, tricked, and controlled. And likewise he has, at times, been able to overcome manipulation. This is no different than any other power house in the MU.

Also; I didn’t say that Loki would use mind control as a win condition (although I do believe that he could- Loki has mind controlled Thor; and one would be hard pressed to say Thor is weak willed).

What I did say is that  Loki’s magic could punch through Jugg’s thick magic hide enough to gain access to his brain. Much like Captain Universe punched through his helmet to gain access to his mind psionically. After that- Jugg’s down fall is all but guaranteed.

He has been dropped by brain based attacks ever since his first appearances against the X-Men. Cain’s brain is his Achilles heel. It is his Kryptonite; and it always has been. It’s the Juggernaut mythos:

Jolt the brain; drop the giant.

That is as much a part of his character as his insane durability and strength are. It is the gold-standard, sure-fire way to drop Cain like a sack of spuds. Go for the brain.

And telepathy is child’s play for Loki. He has scanned entire planets from half way across the universe with telepathy. It is even listed as a base power in the Official Marvel Handbooks; separate from his magic skills. Loki is gifted and powerful telepath; and his power in this area is immensely vast. He packs the power of an omega level threat behind his attacks.  Mephisto himself considered Loki an equal. The god of mischief is a powerhouse in the department of mental and magical power.

“As far as Loki goes, as I've said before, I'm sure he's clever enough to find some way to win but more than likely it would have to be a bfr of sorts.”

Indeed. And you’ll get no disagreement here.

Loki would likely go for the quickest and easiest way to remove Cain from the equation. If BFR fits the bill, there is no reason he wouldn’t use it.

But if you took BFR out of the question; Loki would still have Jugg’s number. He simply has all the tools needed to take him down:

1. He has the magic power needed to punch through Cain’s defenses.
2. He has the skill and power needed to deliver a powerful attack to Cain’s brain.
3. He has the cunning and wickedly crafty nature needed to do all of this without ever needing to get within arm’s reach of Juggernaut;  ensuring that he would suffer no counter attack.

“Oh yea and I call PIS on Juggernaut's confrontation with War Hulk.”

Cool beans.

It’s not really a factor in this fight; but you certainly have the right to express your take on that confrontation.

But just for the record;

Even hard-core Juggernaut fans like Vendel and KB have never called PIS on Jugg’s fight with War Hulk. They simply contested that it was the Celestial Tech used to amp up Hulk’s power level that allowed him to stop Juggs in his track (and not just Hulk’s own raw “personal” strength).

And they had a fair enough point with that contention. A Celestial should be able to shatter the enchantments placed on Juggernaut. Cain isn’t going to win an arm wrestling match with a Celestial.

And a mega-brick like Hulk who is given a Celestial power boost should have the power needed to stop Juggs dead in his tracks. It’s not like that was the only time Juggs has been stopped.

Even if you buy into the idea that Thor’s GB shouldn’t harm Juggs, you still must admit that on panel it did at least break through his enchantment of  “unstoppable movement” and stopped him dead in his tracks.

War Hulk was really no different when you break it down. War was a beast with power that outclassed the amount of magical strength vested into the human Avatar of Cyttorak.

It was Hulk (a powerhouse already in the same league as Juggs) boosted by Celestial tech to insane levels of strength. The end result was power that bordered on abstract cosmic levels. Power that he used to stop Juggernaut dead in his tracks and then physically own him.

Call PIS on that if you like; but even Juggernaut fans admit that Jugg’s strength is no match for THAT kind of power. Celestials should slap Juggs around. And omega level bricks like Hulk, when vested with the power of a Celestial, is more than a match for Juggernaut. Plain and simple if you ask me.

And just to put things into perspective; WWHulk was able to match Juggs in power and hold him to a virtual standstill with his own rage induced power (no Celestial tech needed). Just imagine adding a Celestial boost to Hulk in that match up, and you get War Hulk. Adding Celestial power to Hulk’s template and having that equate to Juggs being outclassed is, IMO, far from unreasonable.

I would actually call it PIS for a human Avatar of Cyttorak to able to outclass an already like powered foe that is suddenly mega-boosted by Celestial backed power.

However…

That said; you of course have every right to your opinion on the matter.

Cheers old friend,

-       Jax

Nov 23, 2012 -- 9:14PM, wolvie316 wrote:

As far as the godblast goes, I don't see it as pis as to why it didn't affect Juggernaut. Maybe it couldn’t penetrate the force field which Cain can erect voluntarily. In fact I don't know why other mystical weapons were able to affect him seeing that he does have a force field. I don't believe Shatter star’s sword would have been able to pierce Cain's skin which is why he went for the eyes. Also when a mystical attack did do major damage, he was shown to immediately regenerate.

Jugg's enchantment is that no physical damage should be able to harm him. You could shoot a nuke into his eye with no result. I don't see targeting this region as the prime factor behind Shatterstar cutting his eye out. Not when that same eye is FAR beyond Shatterstar's limited strength level to cut based on power alone. IMO; it was based purely on the fact that SS used a magic weapon. Magic can hurt Juggs.

Juggs himself admitted this when the Blood axe gave him a wallop. He said it packed a wallop because it was enchanted. Words from his own mouth. Even Juggy knows that magic can harm him.

And yes; Juggs does indeed have a healing factor that is right up there with Wolverine and Hulk. But I don't see Loki blasting chunks of flesh off of Cain ftw. That would be a losing battle for Loki.

I imagine Loki would go for what he knows Juggs is weak to- mental attacks. Loki uses magic for mind control with incredible ease. Casting a spell that mimics the effects of a simple mental blast should be easy for him.

The trick would be getting past Jugg's thick skull.

Do that and you have his number. Juggs brain is his weak spot.

And a top end mage of Loki's caliber should have little trouble hitting with the magic power needed to blast through an eye, and pave the way for a brain focused attack. Hit Juggs in the grey matter, and he takes a dirt nap.

As for the FF... when was the last time you saw him use it? I think Marvel pulled a silent retcon and removed it from his concept. It wouldn't be the first time. Early Juggs used to shoot magic missiles. That was given the silent retcon treatment over three decades ago. The FF is following a similar path.

He didn't use it against War Hulk (Apoc's version) even when he was outclassed and on the verge of losing his head. He didn't use to keep his skin on when confronted by another powerful magic attack. He didn’t use it against WWHulk to ignore his punches. He took the hits and grunted in pain…

In fact- he hasn't used it (even when he needed it) for about two decades.

The FF has gone the way of the dinosaur. 

Juggs relies on unbreakable skin these days.

As far as Thor goes: I don't see a magic FF being a valid reason to ignore a magic attack as strong as the godblast. I'm still calling PIS on that one. The GB is one of the most powerful magic attacks in the MU.

To just ignore it is poor writing. Even back then, Jugg’s bio stated powerful magic attacks can harm him. You don’t get much more powerful than the godblast. It is iconic.